EMRFD Message Archive 13458

Message Date From Subject
13458 2017-01-09 06:10:46 wb9kzy Lab notebooks ?
Fellows and Gals -

K5ESS mentioned a FET that he had purchased but couldn't remember the applications for it.

That  begs the question:  do you use a lab notebook ?  a place to jot down notes, ideas, part orders, schematics, block diagrams and so on.

Is there anything technically better than a paper notebook with a good quality pen/ink that won't fade over time ?  I tend to think not as I have read that the Moleskin is very popular even in silicon valley.

one thing I started after reading EMRFD was to write the date on all circuit boards so that I could refer to the notebook page where it was documented - nothing worse than picking up an old board and not having any idea just what it was.

I wonder if W1FB kept lab notebooks ?  Wouldn't it be neat to see them ?

73,

Chuck, WB9KZY


13459 2017-01-09 07:53:01 trc_wm Re: Lab notebooks ?
On 9-1-2017 15:10, wb9kzy@arrl.net [emrfd] wrote:
 

Fellows and Gals -

K5ESS mentioned a FET that he had purchased but couldn't remember the applications for it.

That  begs the question:  do you use a lab notebook ?  a place to jot down notes, ideas, part orders, schematics, block diagrams and so on.

Is there anything technically better than a paper notebook with a good quality pen/ink that won't fade over time ?  I tend to think not as I have read that the Moleskin is very popular even in silicon valley.

one thing I started after reading EMRFD was to write the date on all circuit boards so that I could refer to the notebook page where it was documented - nothing worse than picking up an old board and not having any idea just what it was.

I wonder if W1FB kept lab notebooks ?  Wouldn't it be neat to see them ?

73,

Chuck, WB9KZY


Hi Chuck,

I do use notebooks! However, they seem to misplace themselves, move by osmosis or disappear altogether!

73,
Niels, PA1DSP.

13460 2017-01-09 08:00:44 winston376 Re: Lab notebooks ?
No notebooks here....only the ones from college, which cannot be found.


13461 2017-01-09 08:02:06 ve3ghm Re: Lab notebooks ?
I do but must admit that I am inconsistent in keeping notes.

I have tried to keep notes the "modern way" on a computer. This way has
it's pluses and minuses. I find I am less consistent in using this
"modern way" than the "old fashioned way" of pencil and paper.

Sometimes my lab notebook contains more scraps and bits and pieces of
paper containing scribbly notes than bound pages. My text books all to a
one contain scribbly notes in the columns and on blank pages plus sticky
notes throughout.

I find paper and pencil more convenient, quicker and easier to use, a
computer or tablet less so.

There is still something very tangible about pencil and paper than using
a computer to take notes, same for text books.

I also frequently use a Sharpie and put notes on the inside covers and
bottom of projects too.

I have much admiration for those who keep well organized and detailed web
sites and blogs of their hobby; I tried and failed miserably.

cheers, Graham ve3gtc




13462 2017-01-09 08:03:56 Harold Smith Re: Lab notebooks ?
I not only keep notebooks -- actual, lab-type notebooks -- but I have started marking all my projects and sub-assemblies with the book and page number on which they were recorded.  I have notebooks going back to the 70s, though the oldest are not nearly as complete as current ones.  Back then I only put finished, complete work in them.  Now everything, even the experiments that don't work, goes into the notebook.

And the notebooks are stored above the workbench, in easy reach.  Very handy, and very, very useful.

de KE6TI, Harold

13463 2017-01-09 08:07:45 chuck adams Re: Lab notebooks ?


13464 2017-01-09 08:16:59 Chris Trask Re: Lab notebooks ?
I use legal notebooks that have numbered pages, just as with a formal lab notebook.

>
> Fellows and Gals -
>
> K5ESS mentioned a FET that he had purchased but couldn't remember the
> applications for it.
>
> That begs the question: do you use a lab notebook ? a place to jot
> down notes, ideas, part orders, schematics, block diagrams and so on.
>
> Is there anything technically better than a paper notebook with a good
> quality pen/ink that won't fade over time ? I tend to think not as I
> have read that the Moleskin is very popular even in silicon valley.
>
> one thing I started after reading EMRFD was to write the date on all
> circuit boards so that I could refer to the notebook page where it was
> documented - nothing worse than picking up an old board and not having
> any idea just what it was.
>
> I wonder if W1FB kept lab notebooks ? Wouldn't it be neat to see them ?
>


Chris

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro
- Hunter S. Thompson
13465 2017-01-09 08:47:54 cwfingertalker Re: Lab notebooks ?
Chuck,

Yes I use a notebook for each project.  

I use those folders with the three hole punch.  If the project is from an article I print it out and use the three hole punch and keep all related articles,  spec sheets on transistors, purchase orders and hand written notes all together in one volume.  Later it becomes a reference notebook.  If I need to buy a replacement part or check the schematic it is all in one place.  

I am pretty sure W1FB spoke about lab notebooks in his articles.  

73

Bill N7EU
13466 2017-01-09 09:15:25 K5ESS Re: Lab notebooks ?

I don’t keep a notebook per se but I do keep folders on my computer for current and potential projects where I store BOMs, Schematics, drawings, articles, etc.  However I failed to do so in this instance.  I probably don’t keep records as good as I should.

Mike K5ESS

 

13467 2017-01-09 09:21:00 Ashhar Farhan Re: Lab notebooks ?
I have spiral bound all the old printouts of the Internet Drafts that I use to work with during SIP protocol standardization work. It is all of 1000 odd pages, the back of it are used to draw, measure and document every little circuit that worked. In addition, there are also log details of contacts that I made using some new rig or antenna. This diary is about 5 years of work. the work before this spread out in a number of college notebooks. 
Apart from this, I maintain a bullet journal. No, I am not meticulous, I am terribly forgetful, that is why.

- f

13468 2017-01-09 09:24:17 Hinds, Don Re: Lab notebooks ?

I find there are two kinds of information.  The kind I write down, and… hmm, can’t remember what the other kind was.

 

Don

WD4ON

13469 2017-01-09 09:33:30 ve3ghm Re: Lab notebooks ?
Moleskin is a brand name of a hardcover notebook.

My favourite is the Blueline A9Q 9-1/4 x 7-1/4 192 page quad ruled (i.e.
graph paper) notebook.

Not a real lab notebook with proper numbered pages (etc) - those can be
quite expensive.

A quick Google search will find much in "how to keep a lab notebook", a
couple of good examples for those so interested

http://ecee.colorado.edu/~mcleod/teaching/ugol/references/Good%20Lab%20Notebooks%20by%20Carter.pdf

and

https://workspace.imperial.ac.uk/physicsuglabs/Public/1st_Year/Forms%20And%20Presentations/Keeping%20A%20Good%20Lab%20Book.pdf

To what degree you decide on how you wish to keep your notebooks is your
choice, it is sometimes too easy to get too carried away; finding that
balance between too much and too little isn't easy, this is only a
hobby after all.

cheers, Graham ve3gtc



13470 2017-01-09 09:34:15 Stewart Bryant Re: Lab notebooks ?
I make and break all kinds of promises to myself about taking accurate
notes in a lab note book. The last time I managed to do it relatively
consistency was in the latter half of the '70 as a PhD student.
Thereafter I did it mostly via email and comments in my code.

What does work very well for many things is a few photos or a video
taken using the smartphone.

73

Stewart/G3YSX
13471 2017-01-09 10:10:42 Tayloe, Dan (Noki... Re: Lab notebooks ?

I made the mistake of keeping a number of experimental notes on my Palm Pilot.  Later these transferred into Outlook in the form of “Notes”.  However, without realizing it, Office 360 dropped support of “Notes”, and that data vanished with it.

 

I ought to have transferred that data to text files while I had the chance.

 

-          Dan, N7VE

 

13472 2017-01-09 10:29:08 Lee Hiers Re: Lab notebooks ?
13473 2017-01-09 11:25:59 kb1ckt Re: Lab notebooks ?
I've started using OneNote at work; I kinda like it. I use the snipping tool heavily to transfer tidbits in, from datasheets or from schematics or from photos. Someday I might print to pdf as a backup. I was concerned about "yet another" format but supposedly the format is open.

Paper is nice, but takes up space and gets lost. I also found that I could not put too many projects into one notebook as finding things was too hard. All projects live in a project folder, with notes as necessary.

shawn
kb1ckt


---In emrfd@yahoogroups.com, wrote :

I made the mistake of keeping a number of experimental notes on my Palm Pilot.  Later these transferred into Outlook in the form of “Notes”.  However, without realizing it, Office 360 dropped support of “Notes”, and that data vanished with it.

 

I ought to have transferred that data to text files while I had the chance.

 

-          Dan, N7VE


13474 2017-01-09 11:34:00 bob_ledoux Re: Lab notebooks ?
My hand writing is impossible to read so I keep a computer notes log for every project.  When external documents are used I combine them all into a bound folder.

When I build circuit boards I etch the project name and year into the board.  Manhattan boards are marked the same way.

All notes, and supporting documents, like data sheets, go into a folder on my computer

bob-N7SUR
13475 2017-01-09 11:52:35 wb9kzy Re: Lab notebooks ?
Mike -

I also do something similar on the computer for new project ideas.

But sometimes even that can be trouble - I'll download a schematic and when I'm trying to classify it sometime later realize that there is no title, no author and thus no idea of what this circuit does.

In addition to titling each page in my notebooks and including the date I try to think of myself as a reporter writing a story to my future self:  need those 5 Ws and an H - the most important of which is WHY ?  Why was something done a certain way ?  This can also apply to software documentation / comments, now that software is so important to ham radio.

I remember one instructor in college (he was a ham) telling us that he required twice as many comments as code in our numerical methods assignments - everyone in the class groaned - all young people with sharp memories.

I use the "marble" notebooks that are often on sale at the start of the school year for my lab notebooks - abandoned spiral notebooks - the wire always gets squished  and makes it harder to page through them - also keep a text file on the computer with the date and title of each page with pertinent key words - makes it easier to find old info.

Lots of interesting replies from you folks, thanks !

73,

Chuck, WB9KZY
13476 2017-01-09 12:28:48 w7zoi Re: Lab notebooks ?
Hi all,

The current thread regarding notebooks struck a chord with me.   I’m a strong supporter of notebooks.    They have been a thread in my life for many years now.

I remember my first exposure to notebooks.   I had just graduated with a BS in Physics and had started a job at Varian Associates, just down the hill from Hewlett-Packard in Palo Alto, CA.   I worked for Dr. Bob Jepsen.  He presented me with a notebook on that first day.   It was issued to me and had a serial number and corporate name tag.   Bob gave me the ground rules: Everything was to go in the notebook.   If we were taking data in the lab, it was to go directly into the notebook.    We could use other paper to do our calculations, but the essential details were always expected to go into the notebooks.     Then, every week or two Bob would ask to have my notebook for an hour or so.   He would go through the notes to see what I had been doing.   He didn’t want to see other info, for everything of importance was supposed to be in the notebook.   We would then sit down and talk about the projects and the work.   Bob would suggest things to try, would correct or refine the mathematics, and in general just do the mentor thing.   I always signed and dated my entries.   Bob would always date and sign my notebooks.   

Bob had another philosophy that was pretty common throughout Varian Associates in that era.   The underlying idea was that our work was not of any real value until it had been communicated in one form or another.   We were all encouraged to publish our work in the professional journals and to apply for patents on those things that seemed appropriate.      This seemed to make sense to me and when I started building some solid state ham gear at home, I thought it appropriate to publish that work too.   

Bob Jepsen was a great manager and mentor, and just a generally great guy. 

I started keeping notebooks at home for my ham experiments.   Early ones were in cheap, but bound “theme” books.   I’ve never used bound notebooks with numbered pages for home projects, for they are expensive.   Sometimes I use ink, but mostly it’s just pencil.  (I’ll even erase a mistake, something that Bob would never have allowed!)  For the past thirty years, I’ve used common spiral notebooks.   The notebook is always in my shop/lab when I’m there, but they are stored in my office.    All entries are dated and all entries are in order.    Sometimes I’ll do a simulation or draw a computer schematic and will paste it into the notebook.   More often than not, the notebook schematics are abbreviated versions of my measurements.     

I don't keep routine project documentation in the notebooks.   Rather, that data is kept on a computer.

There are some major gaps in my notebooks.   In the early days I was not always very careful to get all of my thoughts on paper.   (Memory was better then!)  Also, there was no emphasis on notebooks at Tektronix unless a patent was being considered, so I got out of the habit.   

Something that has proven to be personally very useful is an index.   This is generated and stored on the computer in Excel, but a text file would work as well.   The index entries are just a single chronological line listing the date and notebook number with a subject.   The real utility comes when I’m trying to find something I’ve done in the past.   A key-word “find” operation locates work or thoughts on a subject.

I remember that Doug DeMaw had extensive files of his projects, but I don’t remember him keeping notebooks like I did.   My emphasis came from my emersion in a scientific community.  Doug’s background was in more of an engineering environment.    Rick, KK7B, is a very devoted keeper of notebooks, an outgrowth of his early Bell Labs experience.   

Thanks to all of you for some interesting comments.

73, Wes
w7zoi


  




13477 2017-01-09 16:11:41 Dave Daniel Re: Lab notebooks ?
I keep lab notebooks in the home lab just like I do at work. I have been doing this for many years. I use the Avery "Computation Notebook" 43-648. I often put in notes and printed diagrams, worksheets, or anything else that seems useful using transparent tape.

I also tried using a computer to keep my notes, but I never got the hand of doing that. Perhaps I am old-fashioned.

DaveD


13478 2017-01-09 22:11:50 chuck_ke5hpy Re: Lab notebooks ?
Such a great discussion topic with as many approaches as responders.  I get a kick out of reading a few of my old spiral notebooks of experiments and projects completed or not years ago.  Fun to see what was novel then and challenging at an earlier time.  It does seem to reinforce the sense of gradual learning and some progress. 

With so much available on the web, I've migrated to cloud storage, Dropbox is an example, which allows one to sync folders across PC and Apple devices and capture images, sketches, notes, spec sheets, screenshots and photos.   See something you like on the web, just save it in the cloud for later use.  It takes some organization, but you get out what you put in.  Really enjoy taking photos as I build or disassemble for later enjoyment, reference or sense of completion.  Before using Dropbox, I kept Arduino sketches on one PC, scope shots on another and schematics, photos and notes all over the place.  Now everything tied to a project goes in a folder for future reference.   Don't forget the code for your embedded uP.   Once I actually get the code where I want it the last thing one needs is to not find it some time later when you need it for another application or want to revise it.   Might go mad if I had to type out some of those sketches from scratch. 

73

KE5HPY 

13479 2017-01-10 16:58:47 Rick Herndon K5FN... Re: Lab notebooks ?
Chuck, et al,

I've been using Evernote for some time for things that I need to type a lot/write a lot into. And for things I need to clip web stuff for. I can make lists, to-do lists, check lists, to go along with the text. I can include handwriting from my tablet or iPhone, share back and forth. And, I can show cohorts, who may have their own input for the project.

I also keep an old-fashioned bound, paper notebook. Fry's and MANY other sources put out saddle bound Composition books at the beginning of each school year. I like the bound ones better than the spirals, as my experience has been that the spirals get bent up. I'm also not as likely to tear sheets out for whatever reason, if they are bound in.

Hope that helps some,
Rick K5FNI
Austin, TX


13480 2017-01-10 17:36:01 ac2gl Re: Lab notebooks ?
At the university, there were on notebook computers, tablets, PDAs or any of that new fangled stuff. My calculator was a slide rule. There was a similar rule when I worked at Lockheed, Lear Seigler, Smiths Aerospace, BAE Systems, Northrup-Grumman so I got into the habit and haven't stopped. I tried using an e-notebook but after a few computer crashes gave up on that idea. A bound book of quadrille pages, not a 3-ring binder which can pop open and let pages fall out, is the way to go.
Dave - AC2GL
13481 2017-01-10 19:40:56 Jim Strohm Re: Lab notebooks ?
Chris,
Where do you get those legal notebooks?  I googled "moleskin"and it's actually "Moleskine" but their largest size is too small for electronics stuff
-- 8 1/2 x 5. 

And this is fun-- I've been a high-tech contractor for most of my professional life, and I have never been provided with actual lab notebooks by my employer.  Maybe because -- I guess because I'm a tech writer and we never invent patentable stuff.

So I have lots of padded paper that's sequentially dated, with minimal notes on them. And daytimer-style books that are my personal property, dating back to the 1980s....

I've tried in the past to keep lab notebooks at home, but it's an over-sized chore.  If not for the internet, I could update my lab notebook while my soldering iron heated up.

One option?  A private cloud-based networked server with all the computing devices programmed to go to that server for file access.  I already have the box, but haven't got around to programming it.  I think I need to get another 2 TB drive to RAID it .... I already have a USB2.0 drive with a 2 TB mechanism for "drag and drop" backups.

Nowadays, drive media is so cheap that we have no excuse for not having redundant backups.

And -- I have some highly embarrassing NDA-required stories about Fortune 100 high-tech companies that were too cheap to buy enough drive media for backups, and ... you know the rest.

Me, I just wanted a lab notebook now and then.

73
Jim N6OTQ


13482 2017-01-11 02:12:24 iq_rx Re: Lab notebooks ?
Yes, Wes is right.  My notebook is an essential part of my life, as familiar as my cup of coffee to folks who are close to me.  That's where I sketch ideas, develop them into block diagrams, schematic snippets, notes on how I might toss together a prototype circuit...or design a new hatch for one of the boats...or a shed for the back yard...some bookshelves I built for my son's house last year...

I use bound notebooks with ruled pages, number and date each page, and keep all entries in ink.  Some of those habits go back to my youth, but they were firmly in place by my Bell Labs years.

Over the years I've used different brands, but always bound, ruled, and with numbered and dated pages.  The physical notebooks tend to have about 200 pages, and I write a few pages most days.  I just started notebook number 144, so I've filled roughly 28,000 pages.  Since all the pages are dated, all I have to remember is what else I was doing at the time to quickly find details of anything I've ever done.  Three notebooks full of no-tune transverter sketches, designs, measurements, and other notes from the year my son was in kindergarten...

Writing in my notebooks is a routine, and sketches and designs are often whimsical--a high performance rig that will run for 2000 hours on one AA cell--endless variations on low power 2m AM rigs--boats and sailing rigs that will never be built.  Some work starts with a blank page and basic math and physics.  The other day I found a new source of small amounts of liquid nitrogen, so on the morning train ride to work, I derived from scratch the Y factor method of receiver noise temperature measurement using a 50 ohm resistor at 290K and 77K.  On the way home I wondered what the skin depth of the ocean is at the new 630m band, and started with Maxwell's equations and some blank notebook pages and derived that.  I know I could just look some of that stuff up on the web or find it in some book, but that's not how the scientists in the old basic research community at Bell Labs worked, and I admired it back then.

For things that aren't on the web or in books, I have 28,000 pages of practice figuring things out from scratch, starting on a blank notebook page.

Best Regards,

Rick KK7B
13483 2017-01-11 06:15:20 Chris Trask Re: Lab notebooks ?
I've bought them from Office Depot in the past, but haven't purchased any recently. I did find something similar on evilBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Adams-Record-Ledger-8-25-x-10-75-5-SQ-IN-Ruling-150-PG-BK-6-BK-CT-/122262850906?hash=item1c776f0d5a:g:NTwAAOSwJ7RYSxto

The US Patent Office does not accept notebooks as evidence of "first to conceive" due to rampant fraud in the past. They instead use "disclosure documents", which they implemented so as to be closer to the European patent system.

>
>Chris,
>Where do you get those legal notebooks? I googled "moleskin"and it's
>actually "Moleskine" but their largest size is too small for electronics
>stuff
>-- 8 1/2 x 5.
>
>And this is fun-- I've been a high-tech contractor for most of my
>professional life, and I have never been provided with actual lab notebooks
>by my employer. Maybe because -- I guess because I'm a tech writer and we
>never invent patentable stuff.
>
>So I have lots of padded paper that's sequentially dated, with minimal
>notes on them. And daytimer-style books that are my personal property,
>dating back to the 1980s....
>
>I've tried in the past to keep lab notebooks at home, but it's an
>over-sized chore. If not for the internet, I could update my lab notebook
>while my soldering iron heated up.
>
>One option? A private cloud-based networked server with all the computing
>devices programmed to go to that server for file access. I already have
>the box, but haven't got around to programming it. I think I need to get
>another 2 TB drive to RAID it .... I already have a USB2.0 drive with a 2
>TB mechanism for "drag and drop" backups.
>
>Nowadays, drive media is so cheap that we have no excuse for not having
>redundant backups.
>
>And -- I have some highly embarrassing NDA-required stories about Fortune
>100 high-tech companies that were too cheap to buy enough drive media for
>backups, and ... you know the rest.
>
>Me, I just wanted a lab notebook now and then.
>


Chris

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro
- Hunter S. Thompson
13484 2017-01-11 07:02:53 Hinds, Don Re: Lab notebooks ?

The share feature of Evernote is what sold me on paying the subscription fee for a premium account.  I can capture thoughts and ideas anytime and anywhere using my iPad, and they automatically show up

13485 2017-01-11 12:24:22 Gary Chatters Re: Lab notebooks ?
>
> Chris,
> Where do you get those legal notebooks? I googled "moleskin"and it's
> actually "Moleskine" but their largest size is too small for electronics
> stuff
> -- 8 1/2 x 5.


I have been buying my lab notebooks from Book Factory:
<http://www.bookfactory.com/scientific-notebooks/scientific-notebooks.php>

There are multiple options for page size (up to 8-7/8" x 13-1/2" and A4
or A5 if you prefer that form factor), format (ruled, gridded), number
of pages, and label. I haven't compared prices, but $22 for 168 pages
of 8-7/8 x 11-1/4 "archival quality acid free paper" seems reasonable to
me.

Note: Their web site has some glitches. I recommend using the link to
"Scientific Notebooks", not "Engineering Notebooks". On the Scientific
Notebooks page (the one I link to) you can still get a book labeled
"Engineering Notebook" or Lab or whatever, but you get more choices for
format, size, etc. I have also purchased pens with archival ink from
them, but that web page is inaccessible at this time.

For computer notes I have been using (or just trying to learn) emacs org
mode, <http://orgmode.org> as well as keeping a straight text log file
with daily entries. If you like (or not) emacs, you'll really
appreciate (or not) org-mode.

Gary

13486 2017-01-12 07:36:00 Bob Re: Lab notebooks ?
I prefer quadrille lined, bound, composition style notebooks.  They occasionally go on sale about Staples for about $1.  

I always create an index in the front and number every page.  Daily, I take notes on things that need to be done (on projects or otherwise) following the index.  A rubber band is placed on the day's notes. 

Starting in the back I have project pages.  These are given a heading and immediately placed in the index.  Sometimes, these last pages are randoms thoughts on a topic.  At other times, they are schematics, parts info, etc for an ongoing project.  I should really date these, but they often evolve over many days, weeks and sometimes notebooks.

Articles, photos and other items I place into a program called Toodledo.  They allow attachments and lists sorted in any format I desire and have an excellent search function. Toodledo can easily import and export data to many formats (XML, CSV, Text, JSON, iCal) and allows offline backup and recovery.  See here for details. There is are multiple desktop versions and both android and iPhone apps that all sync seamlessly.  I can also share a list to collaborate on a project.

Bob
WA2I 


13487 2017-01-12 11:04:14 Stewart Bryant Re: Lab notebooks ?

Fortunately it will be a long time before jpeg goes out of support. There are simply too many images out there in that format.

All my phone photos upload to the cloud and the replicate themselves back to all of my main computers.

Stewart/G3YSX